Below is a dialog between myself and Gaines who runs 'Christian Geological Ministry' website. This is a Theistic Evolution debate. Evolution is a false religion and has been adopted by many who are embarrassed about the Bible's claim to a six-day creation. Even though creation science and evolutionary science uses the same observations, the debate rages on. In science, speculation and the reinterpretation of evidence fuels belief in evolution. In Christianity the same holds true. Those who try to reinterpret scripture are only rewording it and pretending that the Bible supports evolution.
My complaint is not that many Christians believe in evolution (though this is unfortuante). My complaint is that people try to drag the Bible into their primordial soup. It is one thing to say you don't believe the Bible's claim - it is quite another issue to claim the Bible teaches doctrines that it clearly refutes.
My quotes are in black, the Geological Ministry's are in blue.
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
On your website you state:
The geologic and fossil records are the surviving evidence that God saw fit to preserve for us that testifies to the truth that the earth is very old and was populated for a long period before the seven days of Genesis chapter one. That record, written in stone, also provides evidence of a long reign of Death upon the Earth and the sudden end of the old world by a universal destructive event, which included a great flood that occurred before the seven days of Genesis one and before Noah's flood.
---end of quote
The Bible states:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
If the Bible says that death came by the sin of one man – Adam (identified by name in verse 14), how can you say that death reigned on the earth before Adam?
-Christian Geological Ministry-
That is explained in great detail on the site, from the Bible. Please go back and read it.
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
Your on page http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html tap-dances around the issue. Your website states that sin entered the world by Lucifer but the Bible says that death entered the world through the sin of Adam. Therefore I am asking you specifically, do you believe that death came by sin and sin by Adam?
-Christian Geological Ministry-
You are missing a very important point. Our present "world" which is Adam's "world" is not the same "world" that existed on the face of this earth long ago. Of course I believe Romans 5:12 that death in this world came by Adam's sin. And I stated such on the website.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the WORLD, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the WORLDS;
There is a distinct difference between the Bible's own defined meanings of the terms "world" and "earth". Once you grasp that difference, you will see there is no contradiction of the Holy Scriptures or the doctrine of Adam's original sin, or the need for Slavation through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus came to save man.
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
Your claim that Adam's world was not the same world is based on pure
speculation, imagination and scripture twisting. It is true that the word
'world' and 'earth' can come from two different Greek words. Your claim that I
don't understand this is false and I have a complete study on this difference on
my website (see 'Is
Satan the god of this World'). The Greek words are 'aion' and 'Kosmos'. Aion
generally means an age or period of time - however, it can also mean the
universe depending on the context in which it is used. Even so, this in no way
proves evolution or the gap theory.
All of the scientific evidence points away from evolution but can be manipulated to support it if you exclude most of the data. There is a deeper underlying problem with your teaching that transcends the evolution / creation debate. It is the authority of God's word. The Bible makes it clear that a godly teacher will teach the whole counsel of God's word and a false teacher will add to it. The Bible gives two very serious warnings to teachers:
Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
To say that the Bible teaches that evolution is true and then twisting the words to make it appear as though the Bible says this is adding to God's word. You are saying that God said something He did not say.
James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
This warning should make us stop and think seriously about teaching questionable doctrines. If we are teaching something that leads people away from the truth we will be judged for this. We all will be held accountable for our actions, but those who teach others will have a greater judgment - and rightly so. The Bible also tells us that a teacher will be known by his fruits. I have never seen anyone teach evolution that had an impact for Christ. If I look at the youth who are being taught evolution - even Theistic Evolution, I see a weak foundation and teens departing from the gospel. I have had people tell me that if evolution is true, then God is not. These are people who once believed that God used evolution, but they take the next logical step and eliminate God completely.
A false gospel produces a false faith. I have been told that by teaching biblical creation, I am driving people away from the gospel. However, the opposite has proven to be true. People who believe the Bible's account of creation have a deeper faith and those who do not never seem to mature spiritually. Where the true gospel is preached, people are coming to faith in Christ. I believe this is because God honors the preaching of His word. God does not honor ministries that customize the gospel to fit the culture. Worldly ministries may be able to get a crowd together, but the true measurement is spiritual maturity - conforming to Christ.
The Bible says that death came into the world through the sin of the man Adam. You say it came through Lucifer. You then have to create another world to squeeze into the Bible in order to make your doctrine fit. Instead of drawing doctrine from the Bible, you force doctrine not given by the Holy Spirit into the scriptures and then claim that somehow it was written and hidden from plain sight.
The Bible says that Lucifer walked with God in the Garden of Eden and on the Holy Mountain of God until he fell. You say that Lucifer fell before the Garden and caused the previous world to fall and now this one. Even this is a logical contradiction. God was angry enough over sin to destroy the 'old world' but then allowed Lucifer who caused that sin to enter the new world? According to the Bible, Satan will be judged first and then the world will be destroyed.
If you desire evolution to be true, that is your option. Just don't claim the Bible teaches this.
-Christian Geological Ministry-
Answer me this question: When the serpent tempted Eve to disobey God, was the serpent good or evil? If he was evil, when and how did he become that way? If he was good, why was he doing something evil?
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
I don't see what this has to do with the issue. At first, Lucifer was good. The
Bible says that he was perfect from the day he was created until sin was
found in his heart. Therefore he was not evil from the beginning. The Bible
also says that Lucifer walked with God in the garden. Therefore, when Adam and
the Garden of Eden was created, Lucifer had not yet fallen. After he fell, he
tempted Eve through the serpent. Satan in the form of the serpent was fallen and
was evil.
How does this equate to a previous world being created? Lucifer was created good and he fell after the time he walked with God in the Garden of Eden according to Ezekiel 28. Then he was evil and practice evil by tempting Eve.
-Christian Geological Ministry-
"After he fell, he tempted Eve through the serpent.
Satan in the form of the serpent was fallen and was evil."
You just made one of my points. Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve. Lucifer SINNED FIRST! One can't rebel against God without sinning.
Are we agreed on this much, so far?
Now, if the wages of sin is death....
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and if the serpent sinned first....then why is Adam charged with bringing death into the "world" with his sin?
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the "world", and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
....rather than the serpent?
The answer is clear...it is because the serpent did not sin first IN THIS WORLD. Adam Did, exactly as the Bible says.
The serpent was already fallen when Adam and Eve were created. Remember, you're dealing with a spiritual creature here of great power. Lucifer fell in the previous world, bringing sin and destruction on that ancient world. That is the record of death you see in the fossil record going back millions of years.
.....otherwise Romans 5:12 would be untrue.
| -Exchanged Life Outreach- The whole basis of this argument is to fit the Bible into millions of years. Second: Why would Romans 5:12 be untrue if Satan didn't fall in a previous world? There is nothing here or elsewhere in scripture to back this claim. Third: How does Satan's fall before Adam and Eve's fall prove another world existed before this one? Satan's sin does not affect man at all. It is Adam's sin that curse creation - not Lucifer's. Last: Satan is a spiritual creature, but not of great power. Colossians 2 tells us that Jesus disarmed him and all principalities on the cross. Even before this, Satan's power is limited. Nothing in creation has the power to sustain life. The Bible says that in Him (Jesus our Creator) all things exist and have their being. Satan is dependent on God for life. What can Satan do outside of God's plan? Nothing. |
-Christian Geological Ministry-
I really don't know how I can clarify the point any better. There is no twisting of Scriptures here. It is a matter of rightly dividing the truth of the Word and applying the Scriptures with some logic and common sense. The Scriptures can NOT be broken but, if rightly divided, can certainly reveal a wealth of truth, if you're willing to hear that truth.
You can except this, or reject it and move on. I have nothing more to say on the matter. You have all the evidence. You be the judge.
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
I’ll ask you one last question. If Satan fell after Adam and the Garden of Eden
was created, how did Satan’s fall cause a previous world to be destroyed?
Ezekiel 28:
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre,
and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full
of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise,
and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared
for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the
holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity
was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And
you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Satan is called the king of Tyre because the city was so perverted and controlled by sin. This is even more clear because the king of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden - thousands of years before Tyre existed. Notice the flow of this passage. God is lamenting the fall of the most majestic angel He created. The first part of this passage is a reminisce of his former position. Lucifer means the bearer of light. After falling, Lucifer's name changed to Satan - the adversary. Before the fall, God declared that he was the seal of perfection; full of wisdom; perfect in beauty; clothed with every precious stone; his workmanship was timbrels and pipes. He was in Eden with this glory. Before Eden is mentioned, God said Lucifer was filled with wisdom and perfect in beauty. God declared that he was in the Garden of Eden and then describes him as the anointed Cherub who God established and covered with every precious jewel. After this, sin was found in his heart and he was lifted up with pride against his Creator. Lucifer was still the anointed cherub in the Garden, therefore we know his fall had not yet occurred.
The Bible could not be any clear on this either. Satan’s fall did not curse this world. It was not until Adam sin that sin entered into the world. There has never been a question about this. The problem is that you have to create another world in order to support evolution. The Bible did not create the world, you did – or rather those who conjured up this doctrine that you have adopted.
Satan is not a physical being – he is spiritual. His fall did not curse this world nor did it curse any world before. If Satan fell after Adam was created, then there is no room for your doctrine. In Ezekiel 28, the Bible clearly states that Lucifer was created perfect and was walking with God in the Garden of Eden. Then the Bible goes on to say that he was the seal of perfection – in the Garden – until sin was found in his heart. Your teaching directly contradicts this passage. Those who believe in millions of years put more faith in Darwin than in the Bible. Science has refuted the millions of years argument, but atheistic scientists and theistic evolutionists refuse to accept this fact.
Unfortunately I cannot persuade you to turn away from a belief system that was created by atheists. I only ask that you reconsider teaching this as biblical while keeping in mind that the Bible has clearly warned you against it. You are knowingly teaching a doctrine that draws people away from the plainly stated Word of God. This is a serious offense according to Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18, James 3:1 and many other warnings in scripture.
-Christian Geological Ministry-
Satan did not fall AFTER Adam, he was already a fallen creature BEFORE Adam was created. How you got that idea I don't know, and don't care. This is my final response to you. If you don't agree with what is written there, fine. Gaines
-Exchanged Life Outreach-
You don't have to answer if you choose not to. I know it is difficult to defend
evolution as a scientific theory and impossible to defend it from the Bible.
Teaching evolution as a 'Christian doctrine' is taking the work of a Holy God
and turning credit over to an unholy worldview.
The points where you are in direct dispute against scripture are:
1. After Adam was created and God looked over his complete work, God said, "It was very good".
Contradiction: You teach that death and disease (which is not good) was already in creation.
2. God said that He completed everything in 6 days - Jesus and the gospels repeatedly affirm this as a historical account.
Contradiction: You teach it took millions of years and two worlds.
3. The Bible says that Lucifer fell after creation. Ezekiel 28 states that he walked with God in Eden - the Garden of God. In the garden, Lucifer still held his position that he was created to hold. He walked on the holy mountain of God and was the seal of perfection until sin was found in his heart.
Contradiction: You teach this is not true. Lucifer fell millions of years ago and created death and destruction in a previous world. Then he was allowed to escape judgment and bring sin, death and destruction into the new world.
4. The Bible says that death came by sin and sin by Adam. Before Adam sin, the world was called Very Good. There is not one passage that remotely implies that sin came into creation before Adam.
Contradiction: You teach that death existed long before Adam and that Lucifer / Satan brought it from a previous world into this world through Adam.
5. The Bible said that all the hosts of heaven were created in Genesis 2:1.
Contradiction: You teach that the angels were created before the creation account.
6. Each doctrine of creation has been presented directly from the scriptures.
Contradiction: Everything that you have presented has come outside of the Scriptures. You claim that those (such as myself) who don't believe in this evolutionary worldview are refusing to accept the truth of scripture. However, all 'supporting evidence' you have presented has been a rewording of scripture, a refusal to believe contradiction scriptures, and speculation out of pure imagination. You state the Bible says many things, but each quote has been 'reinterpreted' by you or by the sources you have trusted. These things are never found in scripture.
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